Bradley Erickson was born in Rockford, IL in 1963. He received his BFA in Fashion Design after attending Parsons School of Design from 1984-1988. Since leaving Parsons, Bradley has worked as a fashion designer in New York City and around the world. He now splits his time between Manhattan and upstate New York, where he lives with his husband. He is an adjunct professor at Fashion Institute of Technology and Professional Lecturer in Fashion at Marist College.

WALDEN: Okay. This is Stan Walden and I'm here with Bradley Erickson on October 2nd [2023], uh, at the University Center Library on the sixth floor. And Bradley, I'm going to ask you, um, if I have your permission to record this conversation.

ERICKSON: Yes, you do.

WALDEN: Okay, thank you. Um, okay. Um, well we were talking about, um, just before this you described, um, what did you wanna—say something—

ERICKSON: I remember where I was at with the history. I was working in, um, a shop in SoHo. We were talking before about, uh, the gay circles that I might have been running around in, in school and saying that it was much more of a nightclub club kid kind of going out and, and to see a scene and hope I got to see Lee Bowery, you know, incredible opportunities of the time period. But I was less in the gay circuit of things. But I remember working with somebody when I was at, um, InWear Martinique in Soho and [laughs] it was funny 'cause he would say, well, "I brought a pair of dungarees because I'm going to go to the mineshaft after work." [laughs] And I, you know, part of me was like, okay, I think I know what a dungaree is, and I don't know what the mineshaft is. Which of course would've been a men's sex club that he was going to afterwards. And I would presume that he didn't live much longer if that's what the activities he was doing. But I certainly, I was still, even through my college years, I think I'd only had a couple of boyfriends, a few, like I wasn't very sexual at that point. Um, I didn't really know how to be, and I was obviously focused with school and going out to nightclubs. Um, um, so things certainly changed for me later. But it was, it was, as I said, probably at least a dozen years later that—

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: Things got a little more active for me, that [unintelligible, 00:02:05].

WALDEN: Um, and that was a student you were describing?

ERICKSON: Uh, he wasn't a Parsons student. He was, he was somebody that I worked with at a retail store. Um, I can't remember if he was a student somewhere as well, but he would've been, had been a comparable age.

WALDEN: Mm-hmm. So it sounds like so far what you're describing, you were, you know, were you going out with Parsons classmates or did you have a pretty separate crowd that you're mingling with?

ERICKSON: Oh, no, I didn't. I didn't, I didn't really have a separate crowd. I was, I was definitely going out with classmates.

WALDEN: Yeah. And were they primarily men, men and women?

ERICKSON: Both.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: I mean, that was, that was the, the luxury of, of that time period.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: A very mixed crowd.

WALDEN: Interesting.

WALDEN: Um, yeah, I think like in a lot of, I think popular memory, which is why maybe there's a lot of, uh, in some of my conversations with classmates, there's a lot of worry about focusing on this time and therefore emphasizing kind of male perspectives, which I think in some ways is valid. But I think it obscures the fact that, I mean, like, it sounds like in your experience, that was a pretty mixed crowd that enjoyed those times and those spaces together.

ERICKSON: Yeah.

WALDEN: Interesting. Um, and so did you, you know, whether during those early years when you were still at Parsons, you said you graduated in '88 or thereafter. Did you always live in New York after, since graduating?

ERICKSON: Yeah. I mean, uh, I moved here in '84 and I've lived in the five boroughs since, since then. So it's laughable, 'cause you know, people are like, where are you from? I'm like, what does that mean?

WALDEN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

ERICKSON: I have New York City cred at this point.

WALDEN: Absolutely. I'd say So. Did you happen to know, like, while either while you're, well, let's talk about while you're a student, you know, did you meet classmates or know classmates who contracted HIV during that period?

ERICKSON: I, there was a classmate who passed away. It seemed, um, pretty obvious that that was the situation. A lot of times, as I mentioned before, it wasn't always confirmed, there were, 'cause you didn't really die of AIDS.

WALDEN: Sure.

ERICKSON: You died of some complication. Um, but I do remember, uh, a classmate passing away and I remember writing to his parents and, um, you know, just trying to, it's always the hardest thing. Like, what do you say? And it's just, I just said, you know, he had such an energy, he was such a, you know, magnet for people emotionally. He was such a bright spot. Um, and we were, you know, it was very sorry to lose him. Um—

WALDEN: Do you remember his name?

ERICKSON: Uh, William Muth. M-U-T-H.

WALDEN: Okay.

ERICKSON: I believe that was his name.

[00:05:01]

WALDEN: Do you remember when that was?

ERICKSON: I wanna say it had to have been, I wanna think he was in fashion, that it was early on. That would've put it like sophomore year, which would've been that '85, '86 time period if that was the right case. I did end up having a boyfriend. I thought he was a boyfriend. That's the whole problem. He thought we were friends. I thought he was my boyfriend. I thought he was the love of my life. And he thought I was just somebody to chat with. Um, and he ended up, he ended up dying in ugliest way, just the ugliest way that AIDS ruined.

ERICKSON: This is why people don't like to talk about it. Young, beautiful, talented people. Bloated and KS, and lost his fingernails and his hair, and just terrible. And I do remember him saying, you know, like, do you, do you have any regrets of our time together? And I was like, I don't think we ever had sex. [Laughs] I remember you navigated my body with your paintbrushes, which, uh, to the Cocteau Twins, and I relived that night over and over, but I don't think there was even, I don't know if we even kissed. So I think he knew early on that something might be adrift for him.

WALDEN [00:06:37]:

Yeah.

ERICKSON: And so he was already limiting his exposure to other people.

WALDEN: Yeah. And so did you say his name, Ed—

ERICKSON: Edward Rogers.

WALDEN: Okay.

ERICKSON: He had gone to, um, uh, Cooper Union. Yeah.

WALDEN: Um, yeah, I think, I respect and appreciate, you know, the difficulty it is to like go there. Um, and you know, we, I told you about the oral interviews we'd be doing last spring as a class, so maybe even more intimidating. It's a group of students interviewing one or two people at a time. Um, and I would, you know, as it, it was kind of occurring to me, like the gap that I was talking about earlier and the, um, reticence to talk about this time and its impact. Um, you know, I was working through this, what would become this kind of thesis theme or idea with a classmate who's equally engaged and curious. And, you know, I, you know, these questions are pointed because I think it's like, we either ask them or we don't, and we either remember, we don't. And so, um, yeah. It's, it's, they have to ask and like, that has to be known to some degree.

ERICKSON: And to what we were talking about, I was just realized, I mean, it's, it feels so much more like PTSD than, than the gay rights movement ever did. 'Cause you know, I certainly did my share of [laughs] die-ins and things like that. Um, but yeah.

WALDEN: Did your involvement in the Student Health Task Force, did you, were you involved in that through your graduation? Do you remember?

ERICKSON: I don't, I don't think so. I, you know, I I, it was one of the big driving activities was this dissemination of information, which I mentioned was available in a lot of places. But, um, you know, we wanted to make sure that we would get that out there. And we did try and get a feel for what people wanted to do. There was certainly less involvement in things at that point, too. I, you know, times have really what everybody does and what, you know, what look good, what looks good on your resume—

WALDEN: Sure.

ERICKSON: And all that kind of stuff has kind of changed a bit.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: Um, so we had tried to gauge it, but I don't think I was, I don't know how long I worked in Office of Student Life, to be honest. I know I worked in the photography department as well.

WALDEN: Um, and then you were talking about die-ins. Did that, getting involved in this way then, I mean it, either way the problem wasn't going away. Did that influence your willingness to join kind of that activist aspect of it?

ERICKSON: Oh, of course. I mean, sex is a, hmm, what's the right term? It, it is bipolar, right? Like, you can be a very intelligent person, and yet sex will make you do things that you know, is not rationally smart. Um, so the more you can talk about things, the more things that are out there. I mean, in a lot of way, you know, like anything, giving it light kind of helps to overcome it and, you know, helps you to take some responsibility about things.

[00:10:21]

WALDEN: Sure. Um, do you have any, uh, reaction to, I think what surprises me in the process I've been going through as I've learned more within the context of this place, um, and, you know, as architects and people who study the environment, we do a lot of mapping and look at adjacencies. And so it's remarkable to be in Greenwich Village near the West Village and near, you know, within a stone's throw of many of these clubs and bars that you're talking about. Um, and to feel this kind of absence that I've been talking about. But, you know, the AIDS Memorial is a few blocks from here. Um, and you know that it's less than 10 years old that that's been up, I believe, at this point, or that the park's been open. Um, do you have any reaction to that? Did you have any—

ERICKSON: How awful is this? Where is that?

WALDEN: Yeah, yeah.

ERICKSON: Yeah.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: I don't even know which park that's in.

WALDEN: Yeah. Um, I mean, you know, the—

ERICKSON: Unless I, I'm not quite sure. Is it in the West Village of the—

WALDEN: Oh, sure. So it's the triangle near, um, I think it's Seventh Avenue?

ERICKSON: Yes.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: That makes sense to me. Now that you've said it. I mean, that was such a—

WALDEN: I mean, and that says a lot, maybe.

ERICKSON: Well, it's weird that it has a bigger, that location has a much bigger impact than somebody naming it the—

WALDEN: Sure.

ERICKSON: AIDS Memorial. So that I didn't quite understand. But of course, because there was always chain link fence there, there was always ways to attach things to the fence.

WALDEN: Yeah. Yeah.

ERICKSON: So, [sighs] didn't bring tissue. People started putting up people they'd lost. It was a way to do your own little memorial and get exposure, that people were walking by. And when, when the World Trade Center fell, people put up—so, It was such a hard time. People put up posters about people who were lost. Yeah. Like they thought that they just wandered off or something. I mean, it's the same kind of thing. Like, it's just wrong time, wrong place at the wrong time. And that, just hoping that they would be found. So I know when they wanted to do something to that triangle, there was just so much emotion, energy that had gone into it.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: Nobody could imagine it being anything else. And now that you say it, I am very aware that that happened. It's just, I guess it just was easy for me to be like, well, of course that's what it is. 'cause that is what it is. And not a Mark Jacobs billboard, which I think it was at some point. Whew! Yes. So there's that. Yeah.

WALDEN: There's the imagery of the chain link fence is really interesting. Um, in the same studio, architecture studio I was telling you about, um, after looking kind of inwards in, in and around Manhattan, um, in the second half of the semester, we looked outwards and seeing, you know, if these, uh, spaces that are integral to this queer history in the city have had to move or shift because of, um, you know, AIDS and people dying because of gentrification, where have, where else have they gone or where are they going? Um, and one place that we looked at was Riis Beach. And, um, the hospital there that's been fenced off until more recently, and it was literally demolished this spring. But what was remarkable, remarkable there is that, you know, this fence wasn't just a fence, it's chainlink fence. And sure enough, you know, people are embellishing it with basically garbage. But it's been turned into something much different. And there are even a few memorials there. So it's interesting to think of the city, really mundane material, but also incredibly meaningful and just powerful sites that, you know, people can project onto, but also get some sort of nourishment from as well.

[00:15:11]

ERICKSON: [laughs] I mean, it's very, very, like druid and like, everybody's sharing their energy in the same spot.

WALDEN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

ERICKSON: Hoping that—

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: It breeds off each other and becomes something good, strong.

WALDEN: Yeah. Um, what did life, I mean, you graduated in '88, and then what did you do after that?

ERICKSON: Um, I mean, I started working right away. What, where was my, where was I living at that point? So in my senior year, I was living in Astoria, and then I moved to NoHo, I think pretty soon after. That seems right. Um, um, but I, I had started, fortunately, I started working right away, um, [laughs] and a testament to the time period too is, um, I got turned down for one job opportunity and took a different one and ran into the design director of the job that I didn't get at the airport in Tokyo. And he said, what are you doing here? And I'm like, oh, I got a job. I'm just, I'm just coming back from Taipei. And he was like, oh, um, I think we misread you. We thought you were, you know, like not a get-down-to-business guy, that you were just kind of—I was like, oh, well. Yeah. And then so I got the job [laughs], but, uh, we got to travel a lot. I mean, that's a whole 'nother thing. I mean, we could blame email for lack of travel these days. But I was fortunate too, to—I've been to Pakistan.

WALDEN: Yeah. Yeah.

ERICKSON: Who gets to say that?

WALDEN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Have you always worked in fashion?

ERICKSON: Um, yes. I mean, I, I had studied electrical engineering before switching to fashion design, but I've worked in the fashion industry ever since. I mean, I tried to step out a little bit by teaching and got sucked back in again, um, to actually the grind. So, Mm-hmm., I'm still a working fashion designer.

WALDEN: In what regard? Or what capacity? I don't know much about fashion, so—

ERICKSON: Oh, that's fine.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: Um, I mean, I consider myself to be in the, in the terminology. I am a fashion designer. Um, I don't always say fashion 'cause it's not always, you know, runway stuff.

WALDEN: Sure.

ERICKSON: This is, I'm working on Spider for Costco.

WALDEN: Mm-hmm. Got it.

ERICKSON: So, money.

WALDEN: Mm-hmm.

ERICKSON: And, uh, but I do everything from, you know, drawing stuff to specking it, to making tech packages, all the typical— making patterns and colors.

WALDEN: Yeah. Cool. Essentials.

ERICKSON: Yeah.

WALDEN: Um, did, uh, you know, how did, did you think about Parsons once you left? Or the work that you did in the task force? Did that stay with you at all?

ERICKSON: Well, I mean the basic knowledge was all there. I mean, by the time they got around to figuring out how it was being communicated, communicable, um—

WALDEN: Contracted.

ERICKSON: Um, it got kind of clear. I mean, one of the things is so interesting that, you know, people would talk about, is like, "do you suck dick or do you not? Do you get fucked with a condom or do you not?" Like some people would say like, "I'm only gonna suck dick." You know, like, "I'm not gonna go anywhere else." Or, "oh, I would never do that, but I'd get fucked with a condom." And you're like—so nobody really knew what to do.

WALDEN: Yeah. Yeah.

ERICKSON: And now we're, we know so much more. And it's like that was, typically, you would be less likely to get it orally. Sure. Unless it piggybacked on something else. Um, and, you know, I'd spoken earlier about being, you know, "dirty, not clean."

WALDEN: Sure.

ERICKSON: Um, I mean, god bless freaking Truvada, PrEP, 'cause that has really changed the perception of things. And I had, I have a German friend and he's always like two years ahead of us about their sensibility of stuff, but—

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: You know, he's the first one who told me, he's like, you know, if you are compliant, you're safer than somebody who doesn't know their status.

WALDEN: Yeah.

[00:20:00]

ERICKSON: And I was like, "nobody's gonna believe you." And now it's on buses, you know?

WALDEN: Mm-hmm. Right.

ERICKSON: So that really changed the feeling of whether I was not "clean" or not.

WALDEN: Mm-hmm. Do you have a sense, um—we talked about compartmentalizing earlier, um, and I think it's a natural thing that a lot of people do—

ERICKSON: And offloading.

WALDEN: [laughs] Well, that's part of the reason we're here. Um, but, um, I mean, do you have a way of like, remembering? Is that something that, like you, or friends, or your community, like, how does that look for you? Or where do you find that?

ERICKSON: I mean, continuing to live in New York City, like we did two seconds after I met you, I was telling you what was on this building footprint. I do that constantly. So when I see something, then I'm, then I re, try and recall what had been there before. What had happened there before what st—like I walked, came down 14th Street and I was literally like, okay, there used to be a fabric store here. And, um, that's probably my biggest recall. Um, I can never figure, I guess it's just what, you know, the recall a lot for me is what did I do that embarrassed me the most? And then I can't ever forget it. There's that, and then there's just, it seems kind of random. And then I'll speak to some people I know and they'll be like, well, you know, you remember it so-and-so-and-so, and I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about. I can't remember that at all. I did, um, uh, re-friend someone from the Parsons days a few years ago when we lost a friend. Um, and [laughs] he's a good ***—'cause he seems to have much more recall about that. And, and of course he has a different perspective. So sometimes you get to hear and you'll be like, eh, that's not how I remember it. Which is good, you're remembering in your own way. Um, but I don't have a tremendous amount of people from that time period. So, you know, as we get older, too, we have, our, it seems like our circles get smaller.

WALDEN: Yeah. Who, what was the name of this person from, that you were connected with?

ERICKSON: Uh, Steven Miller.

WALDEN: Okay. I'm speaking with John Magisano tomorrow, um, who I also found through the newspapers, but I, I think I forget which year exactly he was writing in, but also in the eighties. Um, and I'm not sure which program he was in, but hopefully to make some connections and see where they lead.

ERICKSON: Yeah.

WALDEN: Um, what brought you two back together—oh, you said the passing of a friend. Okay.

ERICKSON: Speaking of cautionary tale, I mean, um, it was, uh, another Parsons—eh, get the oral history—I was working in the photography department and, uh, the, the, what were they called? They, you know, Parsons never called any of the departments by what their—communications department? So the communications students had to take a photography class and of course they didn't know what they were doing. They'd walk onto the floor and they'd be like, "Ugh." But I was working in the, in the, in the photography department and was doing registration. So I would sit there and I was like, the best, "hi, can I help you? Do you wanna have a seat? Did you have your registration card? Now, you didn't do this correctly, but you can, you can just do this and you need to have one class. And what I, the one that I think that will fit in is, is this one."

WALDEN: Mm-hmm.

ERICKSON: "You're welcome. Alright. Bye, see ya." You know, like, I was super nice. And in walks with someone from my year, not in fashion, in communication. And I'd seen her 'cause you just didn't miss her. She's six two with this black curly mane of wild hair in a motorcycle jacket and leggings and motorcycle boots. You just didn't—

WALDEN: Mm-hmm.

ERICKSON: Didn't miss Therese. And so she walks in and I do my spiel. I'm like, "Hey, how you doing? Do you wanna have a seat? Let's do all this." And she kind of was like, oh, we thought you were an asshole, [laughs] but you are clearly not. And so we became friends. And, um, you know, she, the tale, you know, I mean, she was a film production designer. She did "Black Swan" and "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" and "Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium." And there is a lot of, Thérèse DePrez—

[00:25:02]

WALDEN: Cool.

ERICKSON: DePrez films out there. And, um, but the industries, I mean, fashion, too. I was working till midnight on Saturday at 60. Um, it just got a bit much for her. She had ended up having an alcohol problem as well as ending up getting breast cancer. And it's not sure which was the worst in that situation. But we ended up losing her. And all I can remember is a big smile she always had on her face when I saw her. You know, for me, she always made me feel really great. So it's hard to think that someone was feeling so bad about themselves.

WALDEN: Yeah. Well, that's great that—was this a service that happened in New York or elsewhere—

ERICKSON: Yes. There was a funeral in, in, uh, Sparta, New Jersey where her parents lived. Um, and then there was a memorial here on Washington Square in an NYU building. 'Cause she has a lot of film connections.

WALDEN: That's nice that it brought you to together with this other classmate, too. So, share some memories.

ERICKSON: Exactly. Like, "hey, you don't look so bad.” [laughs]

WALDEN: Where did you move from when you moved to New York?

ERICKSON: Uh, Michigan.

WALDEN: Okay. What, were you looking at other schools or was it just Parsons and fashion that drew you?

ERICKSON: I said recently my, I, I like to say that my aunt said to me, because I was in engineering school at the, uh, General Motors Institute, and she's like, I said, you looked at me and I was wearing my purple pants and you said you should go to Parsons. And she told me, that's not exactly what I said. I'm like, but I like that. I'm gonna go with that.

WALDEN: [Laughs]

ERICKSON: She did bring it up. I think what she said happened, she was trying to give my mother a little more credit. She said that I was thinking about this and that she called my aunt, who was more worldly to say, where do you think you should go? And she said, Parsons. And, um, I looked at both, um, Parsons and FIT and when you look at it financially as somebody who has no money, I was like, I'm going to go to FIT but I didn't get accepted because I was too late.

WALDEN: Mm-hmm.

ERICKSON: Right. They were like, oh, we can accept you in next semester. And Parsons was like, oh, sure, we'll take you. [laughs]. No regrets.

WALDEN: Uh-huh.

ERICKSON: No regrets. It was a good time. It was a good program. It was a very good program at that time, too. And it did, it did wonderful things like made the right connections, which that's what you want.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: And, uh, lasting connections too. Um, so yeah, I just, I kind of rolled the dice and I was like, I will leave school in Michigan and go to New York if I get accepted.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: And then I did. So I shut things down.

WALDEN: That's great. That's two huge changes. Michigan to New York.

ERICKSON: Yes.

WALDEN: Yes. I didn't quite look back.

WALDEN: Yeah. I wouldn't either.

ERICKSON: [Laughs]

WALDEN: Um, where did engineering come from? Was that something you actually thought you were interested in, or was it like an expectation that someone had for you?

ERICKSON: Um, I was, I was in, you know, calculus and honors mathematics and sciences. That's what I really excelled in.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: Personally.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: Um, I was in high school and really trying to determine what to do afterwards. And I was fortunate that, um, despite my mother being a single mom at that point and really too busy to deal with her kids, that I was, I, I look back, I'm like, wow, I was secret-smart. And I made friends with families. So I had a place to go for dinner. Mm-hmm. and some support. And so the family that I was very friendly with at that point, they were like, oh, what do you wanna do? I'm like, "I wanna be a fashion designer." And literally the brother goes, "I design gym shorts."

WALDEN: [Laughs]

ERICKSON: You know, like being an asshole to me. And they were like, well, you know, dad is a head of the department at General Motors Institute. And, and it was cooperative education. So he, I literally, I had no money. My mother had no money, so I could work for three months, then go to school for three months. Then work. That's what they do.

WALDEN: Cool.

ERICKSON: And I don't know, even at that point, I think I was making $12 an hour, which is, was decent money back then. And my first semester tuition was $650. So it was, it was financially workable for me. Um, but I had other dreams. So along the way I decided that I wanted to march in a drum corps. So that meant I needed to take a semester off. So I did that. And then I came back and then I decided I wanted to do fashion.

[00:30:10]

WALDEN: Which drum corps was it?

ERICKSON: Do you know drum corps?

WALDEN: So I used to live in Minneapolis. And my friend who was my roommate is obsessed, and he went to school in, um, University of Wisconsin. Um, oh my God. I, it'll come to me later, but he's, he's every summer, he's like going in—

ERICKSON: So there's The Scouts

WALDEN: Seeing shows. Yeah.

ERICKSON: From Madison.

WALDEN: I think he's the Scout. Oh no, maybe not The Scouts, but, sorry, go on.

ERICKSON: I was a Cavalier.

WALDEN: Yeah. Okay.

ERICKSON: From Rosemont, Illinois.

WALDEN: Okay.

ERICKSON: And, uh, yeah, that was an interesting summer. But I came back and I, I, you know, then decided I wanted to do fashion. I went into the, um, whatever office I needed to, I had to have an exit interview. I think it might have been admissions, whatever office it was. And the guy was like, "you know, so many people flunked out of engineer school." He's like, "you know, you just can't leave and come back anytime and watch it. You just can't do that." And "I'm like, okay, I'm, I'm pretty dedicated to this." And then he goes and he flips through and he sees my, my, um, grades. And then he goes, "if it doesn't work out for you, just give us call. Just let us know."

WALDEN: [Laughs]

ERICKSON: Because I wasn't flunking out.

WALDEN: Yeah. Yeah.

ERICKSON: And I literally, because I came, I took a semester off, I came back in, I was with everybody who had flunked it the first time.

WALDEN: Right. Okay.

ERICKSON: I was a rock star.

WALDEN: Mm-hmm.

ERICKSON: So, but, I still left. I mean, it's all, again, no regrets. I have a very logical mind and I am creative and it's a good combination.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: As opposed to somebody who's just creative and can't—

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: You know, get out of a box.

WALDEN: You need the balance.

ERICKSON: Yeah.

WALDEN: Um, was there, you said, it sounds like you got to New York and kind of confronted being gay. Um, was that any, was there any indication of that prior to leaving? Uh, like for yourself or like, was that, you know, did anyone balk when you said fashion, when you're in, is this Detroit that you're in or outside?

ERICKSON: No, worse, outside of Flint.

WALDEN: Okay.

ERICKSON: Um, the family that I just mentioned, the person who was, she was a year older than me. She was my friend and that was her family. Um, she was my best friend. And as you can imagine what I'm gonna say next, she fell in love with me and it made things really awkward because I wasn't sexually attracted to her at all. And I just have some of the worst memories about realizing how uncomfortable we were both in and those situations. Um, before I left Michigan, I did have some of my first gay experiences. Hardly successful, but yes, they did happen. Um, so I was starting to come out to siblings and do you know what est is?

WALDEN: [Indicates “no.”]

ERICKSON: Do you know what Landmark Education is? Alright. So there was this Warner Erhard, is that right? There's a guy, and he devised this seminar system, which basically drags you into a hotel ballroom for a weekend, locks you in and says, your life sucks and you're the only person who can fix it. Which is actually not bad advice for a lot of people.

WALDEN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

ERICKSON: And then a lot of people get very cultish about it. They want, they want you to go, "you have to go to do this. This is the most amazing thing. I will support you on this." Um, my brother ended up teaching it. So, uh, yeah, he just kind of taught me a lot about, um, he would call, [laughs] and if, you know, if I say, "hey, how you doing?" Most people are like, "uh, I'm exhausted. I hate these people that I work with. You know, my partner is traveling too much." Like, it's always complaining, right? He would eat me alive. So he would call and I would just be like, okay, let's see. "Oh, I'm going on a trip in two weeks.

ERICKSON: I just did this, this project. I finished that up, everybody liked it, da da da da." I, I'd hang up and I'd be like, "oh, things are good!"

WALDEN: [Laughs]

ERICKSON: You know?

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: I wasn't lying about anything.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: But it's just, it's, you know, your perspective on yourself.

WALDEN: Yeah. Yeah.

ERICKSON: Um, but he was the, because of his training, he could look at me and he could objectively be, he, he said, "we've joked about you being gay a lot in the worst possible ways." Subtext.

WALDEN: Mm-hmm.

ERICKSON: "But I've never asked you."

WALDEN: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:00]

ERICKSON: And he said, did I struggle? I said, "well, it's hard to say you're anything if you're not doing anything."

WALDEN: Mm-hmm.

ERICKSON: Foolish me. "But I lean towards boys." That meant that for a few years later, I had to keep saying "yes—

WALDEN: Mm-hmm.

ERICKSON: I'm still leaning towards guys." And I'm finally like, "Stop."

WALDEN: [Laughs]

ERICKSON: “Yeah. I'm gay. That's what it is."

WALDEN: Yeah. Ripped off the Band-Aid.

ERICKSON: [laughs] But at least he was asking the question, honestly.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: So that's the good part. Um, and I do think it was his experience there. Otherwise, I think he might've still been the jerk who. I dunno if he ever called me a faggot. My other brother did. But—

WALDEN: Is it just two brothers or did you have any other siblings?

ERICKSON: Oh geez, you're gonna have—I have a brother, I have a sister, I have a half brother. I have two ex stepbrothers that are just ex stepbrothers. I have two ex stepbrothers that my father actually adopted. So technically they're still brothers. Though one of them is dead. The other, they were both hardened criminals. I have a stepbrother and a stepsister.

WALDEN: Mm-hmm. A whole range.

ERICKSON: Yes. But I really have two brothers and a sister. That's what I consider my—

WALDEN: Okay.

ERICKSON: Pod to be.

WALDEN: Yeah, that's fair. Um, when you got to Parsons, did you have any gay faculty? Was that registering at all on your radar?

ERICKSON: Interesting. Certainly when I got into the fashion department. Um, 'cause there was a mentor, um, that was definitely, definitely gay. I mean, it was, it was quite obvious.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: And, and, and supportive. Like, so it was starting to be some, some good role models.

WALDEN: Yeah. Do you remember their name?

ERICKSON: Bill Rancitelli.

WALDEN: Okay.

ERICKSON: And Joe Pescatore. Who's still here, probably upstairs.

WALDEN: Um, when, um, I mean, I have to imagine that these were like, professional relationships and engagements. Was there any sort of like sharing in the dread of the time at all as AIDS kind of unfolded?

ERICKSON: It didn't happen until later. I mean, I'm trying to think of when the, when the juggernaut of deaths were happening. Um, I'm thinking it, it was later in the eighties, early nineties. You know, I certainly have friends who are like, oh my God, I was going to a memorial once a week. It didn't happen to me. It's only a few people that I know personally that had passed away. Um, so those discussions, I don't know if it would've been a, I don't know it would've been right for—

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: Them to have shared at that point. Other than, I mean, you just wanna be like, hey, you know, like telling somebody to be safe is not a bad thing.

WALDEN [00:37:58]:

Yeah.

ERICKSON: In any shape or form. But I don't particularly remember anybody having big discussion with me about that.

WALDEN: Yeah. Were they out at all in just their professordom, in their professor role?

ERICKSON: I knew they were both gay. I don't know. I always like to drop the husband bomb in class just because, you know, then it's done.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: Um, [laughs] and in reverse. I don't presume any of my students are gay unless they tell me.

WALDEN: Sure.

ERICKSON: Especially now, where you can't misgender a student.

WALDEN: Mm-hmm.

ERICKSON: Trying to figure that out. And, you know, I'd love a good, you know, "Mr. Erickson, please." You know, I'm like, I gotta stop that.

WALDEN: Sure.

ERICKSON: Just be safe. Just call them the name that they want—

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: To call them and be done. Um, so I don't remember any of that. But then afterwards, um, Bill had lost a partner to AIDS. [Redacted, 39:09-39:16] Um, so there was a, it happened a lot more after '88.

WALDEN: Okay. Yeah. Um, how are you doing?

ERICKSON: I'm good. I'm fine.

WALDEN: Okay.

ERICKSON: This is therapy.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: This is some, some free therapy. Thank you.

WALDEN: Cool. Um, yeah. I, there's a lot here. Um, yeah, I think to maybe give you a little more context and I don't know what this might bring up. Well, let me ask you, you have this house right? That you said in Harlem, was it?

[00:40:03]

ERICKSON: Yeah. I owned a house in Harlem. I currently have one in Inwood and one upstate. My husband has the one upstate.

WALDEN: What's, um, how often are you upstate?

ERICKSON: Uh, we split our time. Um, I work in the city Monday through Thursday. So I'm usually here Sunday night through Thursday night. He is between jobs right now, which is act.—he's actually between jobs, not, he's not out of work. He's left one and the other one doesn't start yet.

WALDEN: Mm-hmm.

ERICKSON: In the past. He's been in the city three days a week. So more upstate than in the city. But his new job is requiring, which he's trying to work around, five days a week for the first three months. Which I think is smart for companies to do. Good in person onboarding.

WALDEN: Yeah. Yeah.

ERICKSON: Um, but he'll probably try to get that down to three days.

WALDEN: After so much time in the city what's it like getting out of dodge?

ERICKSON: [laughs] It's funny because, um, [laughs] uh mm, might as well, might as well. So when would that have been?2010? No, maybe 2009. Oh, 2009. No, I don't know. One of those years. I'm online. I'm on a nasty website and I— 'cause you, you got all this other information on me, I can be honest. Right. We talked about how perception changed of things, about how, um, the initiation of the AIDS crisis separated the social communities, um, and really kind of forced in. I mean, you saw nightclubs have separate gay nights and that's when the gay people went as opposed to just the club was this crazy circus of things. Right. I really felt like that happened a lot. Um, and then you had the, the separation of sex, too, where, uh, serosorting where you were, you were having sex with people of your same positivity, negative, negativity. Um, and so then again, we talked, too, about understanding everything but sex making you do other things. So I was on a site called BBRT for people who liked to have bareback sex.

And there was a guy who was the splash page, and of course I say this now and apparent like, "what is this splash page?" It used to be an internet term, right? Because you would go to a site and you'd have this sort of the sign-on page. But they called it a splash page. Mm-hmm. But there's this picture of this guy, and then you get to sign in over his abdomens. And, um, we started talking and it was this guy and I was like, "how are you the splash page?" And he's like, well, they saw my picture. They asked if they could use it and they said they'd give me a free year subscription.

WALDEN: [laughs]

ERICKSON: And I thought, "that sounds real."

WALDEN: Yeah. [laughs]

ERICKSON: He didn't say, "oh, I'm a porn star." Right? Or something else where I would've been like, "click."

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: Um, and I was like, okay. So we we're talking, we're talking and, and I said, um, he was 23 and I was 46. And I was like, oh, well I'm not coming up to visit you in Boston. So I said, uh, so do you ever make it down to New York City? And he said, well, I actually need to see an exhibit. And because you're an architect you'll know, it is the, say it, the "Meeting," which is the hole in the roof of PS1.

WALDEN: Oh.

ERICKSON: In Brooklyn.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: And it's the famous architect, and I always forget his name. John. John.

WALDEN: It's not Turrell?

ERICKSON: Turrell.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: Yes. James Terrell.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: So he's like, I have to see this, this exhibit. And I was like, okay, "one, you're cute. Two, you're nasty. And three you're cultural?" I was like, "oh, well you could come stay at my place." Oh, sh—crap. Crap, crap. And I'm like, no one ever remembers anything and nobody follows up, so no, no worries, no worries. Two days later: "I need to be there before December 6th" or whatever it was. And I was like, okay, alright. What's the worst thing? He shows up and we don't hit it off. And I go, you can stay tonight, but you drove, so you're gonna leave tomorrow. Right? In the interim, we start talking on the phone like four hours a night. I was dating a crazy Mexican and who like, we would break up and he would like get to the corner and text me and come back. It was that kind of situation. And I was like, I have to clean house because when he shows up, I need to look him straight in the face and say I am single. Right? So I do that on Thanksgiving and he showed up early December. And literally that weekend, what's, what's the classic lesbian joke?

[00:45:22]

WALDEN: Move in, shack up.

ERICKSON: Exactly.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: What does a lesbian bring on a second date? A U-Haul.

WALDEN: [laughs]

ERICKSON: That is the joke, right?

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: So first weekend I'm meeting him, I'm like, "hey, what are you gonna do when you graduate from college?" Thank you very much. And he's like, "oh, I was thinking about, you know, Chicago or San Francisco." And I'm like, "you weren't thinking about New York." And he goes, oh, I couldn't afford it. And I was like, "you could if you lived with me." Six months later he moved in, 13 years later—

WALDEN: That's incredible.

ERICKSON: Got married.

WALDEN: Incredible. Oh my God! That's amazing.

ERICKSON: So, um, and I know there was, there was more to that, but it is just an interesting story.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: And he's an architect.

WALDEN: That's awesome. Um, okay, so upstate's good! [laughs].

ERICKSON: Oh, that's what it was about, upstate. So that's a long story. And like what I, it wasn't on my radar to actually get a place upstate. I had friends who had places and it's cheaper to just crash, but he was starting to hit 30 and like I had, don't, I owned whatever place we lived in the city in Harlem and then later in Inwood. And so he goes, "I wanna own something. I figured I'll get the weekend house." And I'm like, oh, I didn't really want a weekend house, but okay, you want to own something. God bless that he did it, right. So this was 20, how long has he had that? 2013? I think so.

WALDEN: Mm-hmm.

ERICKSON: He's had it about 10 years. Um, he bought three acres, a fifties ranch with aluminum siding and cinder block construction, but naughty pine paneling all throughout and then bought another adjoining three acres. So we have about six acres.

WALDEN: Nice. Yeah.

ERICKSON: And when March 2020 happened, we just told the dog to get in the car.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: And so, you know, I i, having grown up in Michigan, I mean, I, I like outdoors, I like hiking, I like doing all that stuff. So it's, it, it works, it does work. I mean, I do kind of say maybe I should just, I'm planning, that's, it's definitely the goal.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: That I can give up the city, but I don't have to do, I can wean myself.

WALDEN: Right.

ERICKSON: I have the luxury of that.

WALDEN: Yeah. Were you teaching remotely at any point?

ERICKSON: God, yes. I fuckin'—you don't care. I loved it. In early March of 2020. I was just, I was just reading the handwriting on the wall. So I'm in class and I said, "Hey, you know, I wanna try this Google meet thing. Can I send you an invitation? Can you see, can we try this out? Can I, oh, you can see my screen. Oh, that's great. Oh, that's great." At the end of class. "I said, it's really been nice knowing you, but I'll never see you again. And they were like, what in the world are you talking about." I'm like, I'm, "I'm not going to see you again."

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: And I didn't and of course all the instructors were like, "I can't go remote. I can't teach remote, I can't teach remote." I teach digitally. You're supposed to look at my screen. I was like, this is a piece of cake for me. Mm-hmm. So—

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: I taught digital remotely.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: But remote sucks.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: In so many ways.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: Um, one, I'm a teacher, 'cause I'm a performer. I like entertaining. I hopefully my students laughs, you know, I try and tell some good anecdotes, but then I force a bunch of good information down their throat. And one, I don't get to do that. And two, there's one, I mean you the typical remote—

WALDEN: Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] It's a good impression.

ERICKSON: Oh geez. They do it in class still.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: I'm like, you gotta bring a mouse in. We're doing digital design. You gotta get the right mouse. Um, there wasn't the best sense of competition too, where, "Oh, what did you do? Oh, you got that done." You know, like that just is really motivational to the students amongst themselves. And, and then of course there was the whole accommodation nightmare where a whole generation now thinks it's okay just to like not turn anything in. And here goes this one. I had one student post-Covid. They weren't doing well in the class. And I, we agreed to meet and, 'cause I know that if I get you one-on-one, I can, I can really bring you along.

WALDEN: Mm-hmm.

ERICKSON: A lot farther. So I was willing to do that. And they spent 35 minutes basically listing off excuses. That's what we would consider them to be, my generation, we just, "oh, those are all great excuses."

[00:50:09]

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: And I said, um, "you know, we're already 35 minutes in and we haven't done anything." And they, "no, you needed to know where I was at." And I was like, did you just turn your excuses into your truth? Is that what just happened? So there's this whole mentality about that is really challenging.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: You know, I'm, I'm the generation that is just like, how hard can you work? How high, how high can you jump? Because do it now.

WALDEN: Yeah. So yeah, there's definitely a shift, um, that we could probably spend all day talking about.

ERICKSON: Yeah. I will say the post Covid hours are great. I love when people are just like, it's Six.

WALDEN: Yeah. Time to go. Oh yeah. Much better respect for when things, um, should be ending. Um, so don't feel beholden to stay.

ERICKSON: [Laughs]

WALDEN: But, um, no, I, well I want to ask about, you know, you have this, so what's the age difference between you and your—

ERICKSON: 23.

WALDEN: 23 years. I mean, did this, like, I'm bringing this up to you. Did this, uh, kind of topic and theme, has it come up or like, has there been a learning curve from his side? Just to kind of understand like the realities of your generation and kind of the social impacts that has and like the physical impacts.

ERICKSON: Not as deep, however, you know, I met him online. I told you where I met him. Yeah. I saw his status. I told you that I was already seroconverted.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: So he was 23 years old and he was HIV positive. And you know—

WALDEN: You had transparency.

ERICKSON: I told him, when you tell your parents that I [laughs] that I'm HIV positive, you will tell them I didn't do this—when you tell them you are, you will tell them I didn't do this to you. You know, I didn't want that negativity.

WALDEN: Right.

ERICKSON: Though, you know, I'm sure somethings happened along the way. Um, he had always, when he was, he was in high school, he dated two 35-year-old pilots. He was a third person. So obviously there was a, an attraction to older men for him. And I just, um, I think I'm 25 years old. I can't, I can't see myself any other way. It's just, it's hard for me. I need to, got a little gray. I need to really get a grip on it. But it's, it's a little difficult. But we've, he's, he's an intelligent guy, so I don't think he, he wouldn't downplay what had happened. He's aware of it, you know, we've certainly watched films. Um, I've rewatched things with him. Um, I've shared, you know, experiences. The guy that I lost that I mentioned, there is a large portrait of him in our living room. Um, so the dead Ed, as I call him, is there, he's present.

WALDEN: Uh-huh. Did he do the portrait?

ERICKSON: No, he didn't. He, his, uh, Ed's boyfriend at the time. And, you know, sad is that Ed passed away, but his boyfriend lasted long enough to get better medications. Um, so I think he, I think he can very much appreciate it. There was a great comedian recently who said, you know, we used to say, "oh, this generation doesn't know what it's like to be ostracized or, you know, threatened or anything like that." And let's say, nah, sorry. You know it now. So we kind of have circled around in that respect. I don't think, I don't think a younger generation can really feel the impact of watching people pass away like that. We have plenty of good documentation of that. But like I said, somebody didn't really deserve that to happen. And it was avoidable. I think that's the hardest part is like, it's avoidable. It's just choices. Not that, not that I'm, you know, rating anybody on it, but that, that a choice will do that to you. A choice should be, I wore red today instead of blue. That should be the choices we make in life. Not like, oh, I made a choice and now it's gonna kill me.

WALDEN: Right. Right.

ERICKSON: It shouldn't have to make those choices.

WALDEN: Does it feel important to talk about to you about this part of you and your history?

ERICKSON: We talked a little bit about it earlier of that, like I, when I seroconverted, um, my doctor, I did—before I was positive, I told you it was '99. So it was kind of, you know, it was along the road. It wasn't early. I'm not an early converter. Um, but I deliberately went to a gay doctor who had a, you know, an HIV patient clientele because I wanted, what, if something happened to me, I wanted him to be very clear about seeing what it was, having experience with other people. He would be able to say, "I'm worried about this." So I had an awful weekend where I had this horrible flu situation and he gave me antibiotics and I hived from it. And it was like a bout of dementia. It was like classic conversion, very classic conversion. I was like on the floor in my office and a friend had to come collect me.

ERICKSON: I was that like, racked with illness and he's, "okay, I'm gonna test you for Lyme disease," this, that, and the other. I'm gonna check your, you know, viral load. I'm gonna do a, uh, antibody test. So we did this whole panel of stuff and fortunately for me, I was starting to come out of that conversion by the time I got the results. So like having, having been like on the floor with dementia to like, I'm feeling okay, it was a little bit easier to swallow that. Like if, if you told me when I was at the bottom of this, I don't know what would happen. But he's like, "you know, you don't have a um, you don't have any antibodies but your viral load is through the roof." So it was classic conversion. And he said, "there's actually a study that you could go into."

ERICKSON: And I said, okay, I up so at least maybe I can help, help along the way. And it was at the Rockefeller Hospital. And it wasn't for specific like, oh this is new medication. It wasn't a trial medication. It was a treatment proposal saying if we can get somebody right when they convert, if we hit 'em hard, can we take them off and just let them live? Would that actually work? So it was good because I got free medication. I got blood tested every three months. Somebody was checking me for all sorts of stuff. S lot of great attention. Um, and I did that for several years until the point where they're like, well, you know, we're really, you know, and I was already thinking about it. It's like I wasn't on the best protocol 'cause I was on whatever they were getting, I had access to.

ERICKSON: By that time there was already one pill protocols. So I finally said, alright, I think it's time for us. Thank you.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: I'm leaving now. And they did give me one, like on the way out, they were like, "can you do one more thing for us? Just one?" Like, okay. It was a flexible sigmoidoscopy, which is sort of like a colonoscopy except you're awake. And I remember them saying, so we're gonna put this 12 inch probe in. And I thought, okay, I know what 12 inches is. And then I got there and they're like, so we're gonna put this 20 inch probe in. And I said, "wait a minute. Wait."

WALDEN: That's when they tell you.

ERICKSON: "Wait, that is not what was discussed." And you know, so, and the guy's like, "oh, there's a camera on there. Do you wanna watch?"

ERICKSON: I'm like, "no, I don't wanna watch. Please, I don't need to watch." But they were taking samples because they wanted to figure out, they knew that when you were compliant and you were testing, you know, um, undetectable, it was going somewhere. They couldn't figure out like where it was really hiding. So, 'cause if you went off medication, your viral load would come back. So they were trying to figure out where it was hiding. So they wanted to take, um, samples in the lower tract, see if they could find that. So that was my adios—

WALDEN: Parting gift. Yeah.

[00:58:55]

ERICKSON: Thank you. [laughs] Door prize for that situation. Um, but um, they also, at that time period, and this is what you were asking, they said, oh, we, we've set up this, um, support group. Right? And so I, okay, I'll go. And so I go and you know, some people were, um, I am really grateful that if you didn't know, you might never know that I had HIV, but some things had happened to early people that the medication did. So there was lipodystrophy, or some people would get a hump, or their belly would swell up and then you get vascular, right? Like you lose body fat in your lower legs. So, and I'm just vascular to begin with. So it's like, that was genetic. Um, and so one guy was just complaining just like, we said about like people can tell I am because they can see my bulging veins in my leg. And it just really disappoints me. And so there was some support like that. But then eventually people start saying, "I don't wanna come here. I don't wanna think about this every week."

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: "I'm healthy. I don't want to have to talk about this every week." And I thought that was really—and then that gets a little bit to your point too, it's like we had the opportunity to support each other. And instead we decided the best support was to not be there.

WALDEN: Which is maybe fair at the time and for the people directly impacted. But yeah, it gets to exactly what I think we're confronting now.

ERICKSON: Yeah. I mean, I'm sure I talked about stigma like I did with you and how that all felt.

WALDEN: I maybe as we start to wrap up, um, I'm curious to hear about your community. Um, we talked a little bit about it, uh, maybe when you're, uh, right out of, or during school. But yeah, I think like a, what is your, whether gay or otherwise or fashion or professional or just recreational community looked like, um, what is it now and what was it before? Has it changed?

ERICKSON: Um, yes, of course it has changed. So definitely when I was in school, I was, I probably met a few people outside of school. I ended up maybe through roommates. You know, one of my early roommates I'm still friends with after all these decades, um, made one of her wedding dresses. Um, and, um—

WALDEN: One of her wedding dresses?

ERICKSON: One of, a wedding dress for one of her weddings.

WALDEN: Uh-huh.

ERICKSON: Um, and so it was, it was definitely that. And then, you know, I stayed friendly with a couple of my instructors, so those be, they became friends as well. And then, um, the, definitely the, um, ironically the AIDS community is interesting. The AIDS community actually expanded my social, um, circle a lot. I participated in the AIDS walk and I give good phone for some reason, I'm not quite sure. I'm not always the most pleasant person, but I give good phone. So I was asked to participate in the phone bank to get people, like, for whatever reason, I could show up late, leave early, and still get more people signed up than the person sitting next to me. I don't know how that happens, but it just did. Um, and so I met people through other volunteers. So I had friends there. I did, um, the AIDS rides and I met other riders. So all this kind of stuff really did expand my, my base. Um, I, one of the people that I knew from the AIDS ride had actually lost his boyfriend, not to AIDS, but to crystal meth. Another story. And, uh, I wanted to hang out with him and he said, come to the Big Apple Ranch. I was like, I don't really like country music, but I'd like to see you. Zoom ahead a couple years. I was in a dance group.

WALDEN: [laughs]

ERICKSON: And had [unintelligible, 01:03:26] and all that. Um, I, um, but unfortunately at this point I have old, uh, skeletons that are rearing their heads and it's not, it's my earlier upbringing where I just don't know if people are my friends or not. I can't, I presume a friend is there for you. 'cause if somebody asked me to do anything, I would do that. And so I kind of questioned some of them and realized that that wasn't the case. So I've gone through a huge loss of a lot of friends.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: I don't know if the husband is actually, he's [laughs] a little cantankerous sometimes, too. So it's like, is he, you know, I look at them like, are you the problem? [Laughs] Am I the problem? Yeah. You know, it was part of, it's me definitely. But we went to an event on Saturday, which was like out on the farm and it was a packed place and like three or four people spoke to him briefly, "hey, how you doing?" That was about it. And one person spoke to me and we sat there and we ate dinner. And then I was like, we're both like, "you ready to go?" [laughs] I think he brings me down a little bit though. 'Cause with the right person, I would've been on the dance floor.

WALDEN: Sure. Yeah.

ERICKSON: Hmm.

[01:04:57]

ERICKSON: Yeah. Well I, do you find that socializing is incredibly different post-Covid? I mean, you mentioned teaching. I feel like I went to an alumni event for my undergrad, I think last winter and you know, that's a year ago and only so far removed from Covid. But, um, yeah, I just, it's, it felt like this incredible gap between, uh—

ERICKSON: Well I had, I had FOMO before Covid and ah, Covid was great for fomo.

WALDEN: Yeah. Right. Nothing to—

ERICKSON: Nothing to miss out on.

WALDEN: Yeah. Yeah.

ERICKSON: Oh my God. I think, I think that actually killed a lot of people's FOMO. Which made it so that you're like, Hey, I, I don't actually have to do all this stuff.

WALDEN: Right, right.

ERICKSON: I don't have to live in New York City. I don't have to go to the best places.

ERICKSON: Yeah. I don't have to do all this stuff.

WALDEN: Yeah.

ERICKSON: So that definitely, uh, did do it.

WALDEN: Um, yeah, there's a lot I want to ask you, but I think maybe we can save it for another time.

ERICKSON: Sure.

WALDEN: Yeah. Uh, this is incredible. So I really appreciate your time.

ERICKSON: [laughs] I am totally serious. It feels like therapy, so—

WALDEN: Good. Good. Thank you Bradley.

[end of recording, 01:06:03]