Griphen was born in New Hampshire in 1997. He is currently studying contemporary music and performance art at Eugene Lang College of Liberal Arts at The New School in Manhattan. His work has centered on community health and case management within the queer community, particularly for those living with HIV & AIDS. Beyond advocacy, Griphen explores music as a form of sonic liberation, collaborating with other artists, creating solo projects, and honing his skills as a performer.

STAN WALDEN: Okay. We are recording, um, is it October 9th, I think?

GRIPHEN AVINA: Yes it is.

WALDEN: October 9th, 2024. I'm Stan Walden and I'm sitting with Griphen Avina. Um, and just before we proceed, Griphen, do I have your permission to record this conversation?

AVINA: Yes.

WALDEN: Uh, thank you. Um, great. So I was just talking to you about the broad project, um, and uh, when I was speaking about this with ted in the spring, um, he recommended that I speak with you and just to get your thoughts. So, um, I told you about the project, "AIDS at The New School: What is Remembered?" and I want to ask you, um, you know, when you saw my email and you heard about the project, uh, what was your reaction?

AVINA: Um, I'm not sure. I think like I had told ted [Kerr] that I am really interested in doing more like work outside of school and just, um, yeah, just being more involved in like HIV activism and like, um, community work specifically HIV/AIDS. 'cause I think like, um, yeah, it's just something that like I am passionate about. I think I was really interacting, learning to interact with it in my art. And so I think, yeah, ted just like, I'm glad he put me on and was just like, "Hey, like this is something you expressed interest in." So, yeah, I think, um, I was kind of curious as to what like, it'll be necessarily, but [laugh] I'm excited nonetheless.

WALDEN: Yeah. Great. Well, yeah, thank you for being interested.

AVINA: Mm-hmm.

WALDEN: Um, how did you come into contact with ted?

AVINA: Um, I met ted through his HIV memorialization class, um, two semesters ago now, I believe. Um, and it was actually one of the first, I had taken like, time off from school, so it was my first semester back in a while. And, um, yeah, we, uh, I took his course and then he had me do one, uh, event with the HIV doulas, and that was really fun. Um, and yeah.

WALDEN: Cool. What made you, what drew you to the, um, the course?

AVINA: Um, I've, so I've been living with HIV for, um, seven years now and—no, eight, yeah, eight years. Um, and I think I wanted to interact with it more, I guess as like, in general, not even just as an artist, but like, um, I think I had, I had been working as, actually before I came back to, um, to school full-time, I had been working as, um, an HIV like case manage, like intensive care case manager at Apicha Community Health Center. And—

WALDEN: Where is that?

AVINA: It's in lower Manhattan.

WALDEN: Okay.

AVINA: Um, in SoHo area. It was, yeah, really rewarding, but definitely very, it was hard for me to sustain it emotionally and, um, I kind of felt like I was like turning my back on my community at a sense, like to pursue my like, own career and interests. But I think like my friends like helped me realize like, oh, like you pursuing your own interests and like dreams is like uplifting your community. And I think that's really what like propelled me to go into like even just taking a class on like HIV and memorialization. Um, and since then I've definitely been able to, like, I had a performance in the fall, the last fall, um, showcase. Um, and I think that was like my first like overtly like HIV-, like, related art piece and I've definitely, I've been able to make more art in that realm. So, yeah, I think like, HIV memorialization was a really good, like foothold into like how I could see other artists interacting with their experience, dealing with like the epidemic and like HIV as a whole. Um, yeah, I'd say that really was like on my mind at that time. Yeah.

WALDEN: Yeah. Were you surprised by a class called HIV and Memorialization? Were you like, you know, is that something you would have expected to encounter here?

AVINA: Um, I guess not. Um, I think like, I liked how on the nose it was, um, and I liked that it wasn't just a class on HIV, I think. And I liked the whole aspect of, um, I dunno—I also think my perception of that class is different than, like, [laughs] the average, like, person taking that class. But, um, as somebody living with HIV taking that course, I think it was really insightful for me and it made me feel like, oh, I am actually genuinely interacting with like this community that I am a part of. And I think what really fascinated me the most was like the counter memorials and like things that really just like, really like subverted expectations for what a memorial should be, I guess.

[05:17]

WALDEN: Do you want to give examples? Like, what spoke to you as a counter memorial?

AVINA: Um, I think like, just the idea of counter memorial as a whole too, and like really diving into that concept was that, I think that was the first time I've like really, um, like been exposed to it. It, like, these different, um, like pieces or just like sites that are meant to like disrupt like the space as a whole and like kind of bring this like, inescapable attention to like the subject at hand. Um, I think, um, I don't know, I guess like, making art around HIV that is just so unapologetic and just very much like, I think like, I dunno, I'm like thinking about this like from an artist's lens as well. 'cause I think my art has always been very like, not like overtly saying something, necessarily. And so, like art that does, I think does really like, inspire me and makes me think like, how could I do that? Or how would I do it in my art? Make these, like, even if they are subtle gestures, but they are still like, interacting with a community or, um, a bigger idea than myself. Yeah. I think that was a long-winded answer, but I don't know if I—

WALDEN: No, it's great.

AVINA: Covered it. [laughs]

WALDEN: Yeah. Well there are like a lot of things I wanna react to, but I guess it's just interesting to think about memorials and counter memorials. I think one of the things that interested me about this project is that as I was thinking about the question, what is remembered, um, I can help but think of the [New York City] AIDS Memorial, which is like two blocks from here.

AVINA: Yeah.

WALDEN: And, um, you know, it, that's very close, but it also feels very far away.

AVINA: Mm-hmm.

WALDEN: And, um, I think, when I think about history and everything that, that represents like St. Vincent's Hospital, um, it's all very, I think, lost, um, at least personally. And so I, I don't know if you have any in that class and in, in your encounters, if any, with that, with that space. I wonder what comes to mind.

AVINA: I know like people find it contentious. Um, and I think, I mean, I see it as a park, like a memorial. I think it's a very traditional memorial. Um, but I don't know. I think like, I don't know. I think it's kind of hard to ask more from a space, but I don't think—I think it's valid. I guess. I don't know. I think I am genuinely curious. I think I need more like discourse over like, the park as a whole because I understand like, I don't know. It isn't, um, it isn't much more than just a park or a memorial. Um, I don't know. I interacted, I actually used the art piece yesterday. I did a performance, I did, um, I used part of, um, a David Wojnarowicz—I had two pieces I had to perform yesterday for school. And I'm in a Remix and Resistance course that is about, um, interacting with like, songs or, um, rallying rally cries of like resistance. And I like chose to do mine on HIV and I, for that one, I chose a symphony by John, like Corigliano, I believe it is, um, that was like involved with the AIDS quilt. But for my second performance, I had spent more time on that one and I really needed something for my next one. And I'd been, I had gotten footage from the piers, on like the Chelsea Piers of like, the dilapidated, like wood and whatnot. But on my way there to go get that like footage, I stopped at the AIDS memorial and I like was looking, I like got footage of like, the pool, the, like, the tiny little like stone that has like, the water like flowing. Um, and I really appreciated the visual and—I don't know, I think I do appreciate a space that is dedicated to, um, remembrance. I think like, did it do it justice? I don't, I don't know. I think maybe 'cause like I know what that space is. I've, like, I took a class like that, like discussed it and like, um, yeah. I think it's hard for me to have like a full opinion on it. But I think, yeah, I mean—

[10:13]

WALDEN: Yeah, that's the answer.

AVINA: It's the space to interact with the, that I interacted with.

WALDEN:Yeah.

AVINA: And I think, yeah, I think it, it succeeded in that sense with me, but. Yeah.

WALDEN: Cool. Um, I also want to talk about your perspective that you had in the class and how you felt like your perspective might've been different from your classmates. Um, yeah. I think coming to that class and what you're learning and encountering, um, I wonder prior to that class at The New School, like, was there any other space where you're able to kind of interrogate that part of your identity or experience? I wonder what that looked like.

AVINA: Um, I think like my—that was like the first time I really like, did like disclose my status to like the whole class. 'cause I did feel like our first assignment was to talk about why we, like, were initially interested in the class to begin with. And I was like thinking, I really will only get the most outta this class if I am kind of like open and honest and, 'cause I wanna be able to speak my mind, like open and honestly in a class like that. And I think to do so, I kind of need to be understood for how I interact with this class as a whole and the subject matter. Um, like I live that class outside [laughs] I live aspects of what that class is teaching, um, outside of the school. And I think like that's something I'm glad ted like was able to like understand. Um, I think like with my classmates, I think they definitely, there was just a generational gap. And so I think that was really fascinating for me to like bear witness to like their understanding of HIV and their, what they did know and what some, how some of them have like these really interesting perspectives or just like histories themselves with, um, HIV and AIDS. But, um, I think it, it just was really, um, I think it was, I don't know, I don't wanna say it was tiring. Sometimes it would be kind of disparaging, just like, yeah, I mean AIDS history isn't like a really sunshiney or like positive kind of thing. And, but I think it's important nonetheless. I think like it is a, something that like, isn't something I love about [laughs], like living and having to deal with. Like, I wish it didn't have to be this way, but I think it's, yeah, I don't know. I think like it's really important to like embrace like the hard parts about it, I guess.

WALDEN: Mm-hmm.

AVINA: Yeah. I think that's something that I've been really trying to confront as I've gotten like into my twenties, 'cause I was like 19 when I was first diagnosed. And so I think like my natural reaction was just not to really interact with it or just like, kind of like, not sweep it under the rug, but just see it as like, this is just how it is. And not really have to like, delve into how I feel about it, necessarily. It was kind of like, no use of crying over spilled milk, as like, I don't know. Yeah. That was, I think that's just my natural response to this.

WALDEN: Since taking that class. Do you find that you, like, do you look for that sort of discourse elsewhere? Is that something that you try to seek out or you find you need?

AVINA: Yeah, I think like, I think I wanted to either pursue something in like community work or in like music and art. And I think, like, I'm realizing like I, I do really want to mend those two and like blend them together. I am really passionate about, like, I think yeah, working in the community and like doing HIV intensive care really did like open my eyes to like, oh, this is such a very now experience for people. And I think a lot of people are have like this stereotype for what HIV and AIDS looks like today. And also kind of like, I feel like it's almost like similar to like my reaction to being diagnosed. It's just like, oh yeah, it's there, but like not really interacting with it. And that kind of made me feel like, oh, there's so much I can do. And I'm like, I've been given so much privilege and I think I want to be, interact with the world and my life beyond like, um, just passively living by it, I guess. I don't know if that [laughs] is—

[15:04]

WALDEN: No, it's interesting.

AVINA: Solid, but—

WALDEN: Um, yeah, you're talking about the history and um, maybe your exhaustion of kind of living something that others are learning about in like a very like contained place. And so, um, I wonder how you do, um, I'm trying to figure out how to ask this. Like, what is your relationship to, you know, there's like a very well-documented record of like activism and action around—

AVINA: Mm-hmm.

WALDEN: Um, HIV/AIDS, um, that historical records very like accessible, I feel like, at least from my perspective.

AVINA: Mm-hmm.

WALDEN: Um, and then when this conversation might be contained to like a very rich conversation around HIV/AIDS, um, is contained to a classroom, I guess, like that's, those are two very like, um—like how do you make those things meet?

AVINA: Mm-hmm.

WALDEN: And maybe that's just, I don't know, that's not a very clear question.

AVINA: I think like, hmm—

WALDEN: I guess do you feel weighed down by like, does the, like a historic record serve you? Do you find that it serves you and like how you just live your life every day in 2024 versus very siloed conversations about this, HIV and AIDS that are still very, you know, they shape life in a really meaningful way. Um, but you might not be having that as rich conversations outside of a class about HIV and memorialization. I don't want to project or like—

AVINA: Yeah, no.

WALDEN: Put words into your mouth.

AVINA: That's fair, um—

WALDEN: Just trying to see if there's any like a dynamic there that, um, that is something you've encountered whether at The New School or more broadly.

AVINA: Yeah, I think, yeah, I mean, to an extent, I don't know if this answers, but I think like people really facing the, like brunt of like the disparities with HIV and AIDS aren't talking about memorializing. They're like focused on like living and like getting their wants and needs. And I think like having to, like, I feel like I got like such a gl—like glimpse at that experience in like doing case management and it just, I think like, it's being in a class where people who are y—I mean they're young and that's like, that's also just my experience, like being older in school. But I think like hearing what they have to, um, or what they want from like memorialization or what they want for like the HIV community, it is that like outside, like perspective. So it is like, it's hard to like, how do I educate these people or like reframe their perspective to like center people who are actually actively struggling with it and not memorializing them when they're like still here.

WALDEN: Mm-hmm.

AVINA: And that's where I think that kind of like contention came because like I think like, mm, for me it was just kind of hard to be like, it's not easy to hear about like, that every day. And, um, but I think it's important to like, yeah, I think it's important as a person, a part of the community, I felt like I was doing something important like by interacting and doing like the study. 'Cause I do want to have like an educated and like, um, inspired voice when it comes to this. Like, I don't want to necessarily be speaking on something that like, I don't fully have like a full scope over. Yeah. I, I think like it was, it, it felt like I had to take that on though. That like, oh, I need to, like, if I'm gonna be take, like in a course like this, I need to know if I, if I have this HIV experience, I have to be like the perfect like poz person and have like all the answers or like, know, like how HIV works down to a t to like explain it to other people.

WALDEN: Yeah.

AVINA: And, um, yeah, I think that's something that like I was just like struggling with and also still like talking about it openly. Like I don't, I'm not really like super open with like my status to the point that like, oh, it's just something everybody knows about me. But I've always just kept it as like, okay, like if it's relevant, then like, of course, like, I think it's, it's not easy, but I think it helps educate the people around me for sure. Um, I just don't want to have to be that like, um, that—

[20:01]

WALDEN: Token or—

AVINA: Yeah, that person that has to do that, I guess. But I, I know, I under—also, I think at, taking that course too and disclosing my status, I did want to be a resource of sorts to these kids. Like I wanted them to know like, oh, like this is, like, I think a lot of people are surprised when they meet me that I've been like, I'm young, as young as I am and poz, or that I've been poz as long as I have been. And yeah, I really enjoyed being able to connect with like, the patients I had about like being poz and like having to just like feeling like it's one of those things that's like, we just understand, like that we're, yeah, our experiences might be different outside of this, but this is one thing that we do have in common. And I think like, I wanted to be like, I mean, for my patients it felt like I had to be an example. And now with like, um, my classmates, I feel like I was feeling that same way. Yeah

WALDEN: Mm-hmm. Do you find that, I mean, is there, um, is there like a poz community at The New School? Is there, I know student health services is pretty involved and invested in care in a lot of ways. I talked to Tamara who's—um, uh, Tamara Oyola-Santiago. Are you familiar with her?

AVINA: Mm-mm. [no]

WALDEN: Okay. She's, um, been a part of the Student Health Services team for a long time, uh, and has done a lot of car reduction, um, in care, community care around HIV and AIDS.

AVINA: Mm-hmm.

WALDEN: Um, so I know from like a, a kind of, um, from like a services perspective there, there's a lot of resources, but I guess I don't know what sort of, um, if there's like a poz community you found, whether that's at The New School or beyond.

AVINA: I think, um, I haven't found that in like the student base or nor have I like really actively like sought that out. But, um, I think the closest would be like ted and like him helping me like do, um, events with like the HIV doulas was really something that I would like to interact with more. Um, yeah, I definitely was really grateful for that.

WALDEN: Yeah. What was that like? What was the event that you participated with for them?

AVINA: Um, it was an event, I believe it was, it was in January or February and I know it was for, uh, Kia LaBeija was hosting this, um, oh, it's actually, well the doulas do this, I think they do it like annually, or they do it—they've done it before in the past, but they did a reading of the CDC of, um, when the, um, women affected by HIV and AIDS did the sit-in, at the CDC, it's like a, a table reading of like that short little play that they have. Um, and so I got to do one of the, I got to read for one of the characters, which was, it was cool. I definitely am like, not like a trained actor by any means, but it was nice to like try it out and like, um, definitely—and like work with other people that are in the—I that was my first time really doing like a community event.

WALDEN: Yeah.

AVINA: That wasn't tied to like, um, like the, um, community center I worked at before. And like, it really felt like I was doing something artistic outside of like any kind of like big, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Organization, I guess.

WALDEN: Yeah. Cool. That's great. And, um, where did that take place?

AVINA: That was at, um, shoot, um, it was at a, I'm trying to remember. I believe it was an LGBTQ center and they were having, um, they were showing Kia LaBeija's photography, I believe.

WALDEN: Okay.

AVINA: And I'm trying to remember the space. Was it, I can definitely find it in an email.

WALDEN: Okay. Cool.

AVINA: Mm-hmm.

WALDEN: That's great. Um, you talked about your music and your art and your interest in blending that somehow in like a community-, sort of, facing definitely practice. Have you thought about what that might look like? Or, um, what's your dream about that?

AVINA: I think like, I would love to host like a solo kind of exhibit of my work. And I think that would include certain pieces that relate to HIV. I've done, like, I've done like, yeah, solos and like the fall performance, but I would like to do like, I think more events that are like overtly for like HIV awareness and like, um, relief. And I think I'd love to like perform in those kind of spaces or even just being in them in like, in like helping out where I can, I like doing like production and—

WALDEN: Mm-hmm.

[24:58]

AVINA: Helping, um, execute, um, these ideas. I think like, um, I think it's just really rewarding for me. Like, I think it, it feels like I'm directly interacting with my community. Um, and I think bringing art into it is just like my dream. Like to yeah, just have like this voice and be inspired and interact with like, the time and like the place that I'm in. Um, yeah.

WALDEN: That's great. It sounds exciting. Um, I'll talk to you afterwards about, um, maybe an event that could happen, uh, coinciding with the exhibit. Um, yeah, this has been really wonderful. Is there anything that like, um, you know, I kind of, I'm coming at this with my own sort of like vantage point and baggage and like I've kind of been in the same, um, sort of trajectory as this project has unfolded.

AVINA: Mm-hmm.

WALDEN: And, um, is there anything that like, uh, pertaining to the subject that like I should know about or should be asking about? Is there anything that you feel like is missing from the conversation?

AVINA: Hmm. Uh, gee, I don't know. I guess, um hmm. I don't know. I think I went in with like no intention—

WALDEN: Yeah.

AVINA: Or no expectations, but um, hmm. I think it's important for there to be exposure I think on like, people living with HIV and their actual opinions.

AVINA: Mm-hmm.

AVINA: Um, so yeah, I think I'm just yeah, grateful, um, that you're asking me questions.

WALDEN: Yeah. Cool.

AVINA: Thank you.

WALDEN: Yeah, of course. Thank you for being open to them.

AVINA:Yeah.

WALDEN: Um, yeah, maybe we can stop it there and um, yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Griphen.

[end of recording, 26:57]